Thanks to everyone for replying. Excellent quote, Cofty.. I love the way he depicts in a single sentence the savagery we witness in nature.." Tho' Nature, red in tooth and claw" . Has anyone read the recent WT article on how God cares for animals?
The Quiet One
JoinedPosts by The Quiet One
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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The Quiet One
..specifically, the suffering of animals. You can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to God etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. But how can you love a God that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with God, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways. I could list stories I've read that would probably make you feel ill, but I'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate. I just want to sit back and listen to your views..
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More "Elders" Doubt They Are Appointed By The "Holy Spirit"!
by Bubblegum Apotheosis inthe study edition of the watchtower says the elders are appointed by jehovah's holy spirit.
it's confounding the society does not realize that more and more elders, do not accept this claim.
i have racked my brain, wondering how many brothers and sisters actually believe this, fall hook and sinker.
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The Quiet One
It seems to me that they've got all the bases covered.. If an elder is wrongly appointed (whilst being adulterous perhaps).. Either: It's not known that he is practicing willful sin and everyone thinks 'what a fine brother to be appointed'; Or someone knows about the adultery but can't prove it.. so keeps quiet rather than risk being charged with slander; OR someone has evidence, or the elder confesses, and he is removed as an elder. Any of these outcomes renders Holy Spirit or Jehovah as irrelevant in any decisions about who will preside over the congregation. Unless the person is well known to fail the Biblical qualifications, perhaps as a drunkard etc, which is still just a matter of whether they're capable of keeping up appearances or not.. The qualifications given by holy spirit in the Bible are looked at, sure, but by whom? A small group of imperfect men who can't possibly know for sure who should/should not be appointed. Men with their own motives and agendas can appoint men with their own hidden sins/motives to a position of automatic trust because of the 'holy spirit having appointed them' , where they can tear vulnerable people down spiritually and destroy family lives by Df'ing unjustly at times.. And apparently this all has Gods backing, because the Watchtower claims that the changed appointment process (elders used to be voted in, which was at least democratic) is a refinement from Jehovah.. Organised religion seems to be a total sham to me at the moment.
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More "Elders" Doubt They Are Appointed By The "Holy Spirit"!
by Bubblegum Apotheosis inthe study edition of the watchtower says the elders are appointed by jehovah's holy spirit.
it's confounding the society does not realize that more and more elders, do not accept this claim.
i have racked my brain, wondering how many brothers and sisters actually believe this, fall hook and sinker.
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The Quiet One
DJEGGNOG said: "However, I myself am filled with holy spirit the same as are many other Jehovah's Witnesses (else it would not be possible for a Christian to grieve it!), but this expression -- being "filled with holy spirit" -- that some fail to comprehend doesn't imply nor does it mean that I have or anyone else has been zapped with a portion of God's holy spirit. This expression simply means that I have been "empowered" by God's word, or energized by the same "power" that was given to Jesus' early disciples back in33 AD, except that"power" was receivedsupernaturally whereas this same "power" today is received through the things we read in the Bible. " -- So basically you are saying that true Christians today do not receive the holy spirit, they can only be directed by it through the words in the Bible? And that being ''filled with the spirit'' actually means to be 'moved to action through what the spirit has said' ?
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Will The Watchtower Society Continue To Comply With The Working With Children Act?
by DT ini'm hoping that this thread can address the current situation in australia without being derailed by debate about steven unthank and any errors of judgement that he may have committed.
i'm not saying that debate isn't needed or appropriate.
it's just that there are already enough other threads handling that subject.. the crown has implied that they are unwilling to enforce the working with children act.
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from Examining the Scriptures Daily foreward and second paragraph
by therevealer inhowever, not everyone feels the way you do.
in fact, those who truly make the bible their guide are.
a minority-only about 0.1 percent of the earth's population.. isn't this a declaration of the "failure" of their declaring the good news bullshyte?
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The Quiet One
Matthew 7:14 World English Bible " How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it. "
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Why didn't Jehovah ??
by Phizzy inas jehovah said to the israelites "you are my witnesses" and was happy to let them get on with things without major interference by him, he must have broadly approved of what the nation was doing, until jesus came and changed things.. for hundreds of years before jesus the jw's (israelites) had decided that the name of god was too holy to pronounce.
had he been upset by this he would have sent a prophet to sort this out, but no, it continued as practice,for 200 years at least,and remained uncondemned by jesus.. if jehovah had really wanted his people to use his name, would not a prophet, at least would not his son, have said so ?.
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The Quiet One
UCANTNOME: Okay, thats your belief.. I'll leave you to it. As one final point before I leave, please take a look at Ephesians 3:14. Who was Paul praying to? I wish you all the best :) James Woods: Unless you believe that YHWH and Jesus are the same, which Jw's do not, YHWH demands exclusive devotion. I'm not qualified to get into a Jesus/YHWH discussion, so I'll leave it there.. http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/IsJesusGod/Contrasts.htm
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Why didn't Jehovah ??
by Phizzy inas jehovah said to the israelites "you are my witnesses" and was happy to let them get on with things without major interference by him, he must have broadly approved of what the nation was doing, until jesus came and changed things.. for hundreds of years before jesus the jw's (israelites) had decided that the name of god was too holy to pronounce.
had he been upset by this he would have sent a prophet to sort this out, but no, it continued as practice,for 200 years at least,and remained uncondemned by jesus.. if jehovah had really wanted his people to use his name, would not a prophet, at least would not his son, have said so ?.
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The Quiet One
UCANTNOME SAID: "I view Christ as my Lord and as Peter said I do my utmost to be found finally by him spotless andunblemished a slave of him. This sounds like worship to me. " -- Abrahams wife called him Lord, even in her heart. People have been slaves for human Lords, with no worship/worshipful adoration involved, just respect and obedience. Look up the word Lord.. And Jesus had the ability to read people and to know who they really are, even on earth, making him a fitting judge.. None of the things that you mentioned need to involve worshipping Jesus. Again, who did Jesus promote the worship of whilst on earth, whose name did he sanctify, and who did he tell his disciples to pray to? As you admit, Abraham didn't view the angels as God, he didn't worship the angels..but he bowed to them as Gods representative. Unless it can be proven from the context in the Bible itself that Jesus' disciples worshipped him, rendering proskuneo as 'worship' in regard to Jesus is unfounded and could show more bias than the NWT did in translating a word that can equally mean 'obeisance' according to the context. Read your NWT, or a less biased translation that doesn't insist that proskuneo must mean the same thing, one that doesn't tell you that Abraham WORSHIPPED the three angels..(would an angel allow this?) with an unbiased mentality. You'll find that Jehovah alone was to be worshipped, Jesus to be honoured and submitted to on bended knee, or bowed down to as anyone would to a King who ruled over them.. Except he is a heavenly ruler, which is why the angels do obeisance to him as well. I've enjoyed this discussion..
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Why didn't Jehovah ??
by Phizzy inas jehovah said to the israelites "you are my witnesses" and was happy to let them get on with things without major interference by him, he must have broadly approved of what the nation was doing, until jesus came and changed things.. for hundreds of years before jesus the jw's (israelites) had decided that the name of god was too holy to pronounce.
had he been upset by this he would have sent a prophet to sort this out, but no, it continued as practice,for 200 years at least,and remained uncondemned by jesus.. if jehovah had really wanted his people to use his name, would not a prophet, at least would not his son, have said so ?.
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The Quiet One
To clarify, the angels in Genesis 18 were not Jehovah (John 1:18), yet Abraham bowed to them.. And they could have been referred to as gods, because they spoke for Jehovah. Jesus' disciples bowed to him+he was a god (representative of Jehovah) does not = they thought he was God. For a Biblical example of god meaning 'representative'.. See Exodus 7:1
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Why didn't Jehovah ??
by Phizzy inas jehovah said to the israelites "you are my witnesses" and was happy to let them get on with things without major interference by him, he must have broadly approved of what the nation was doing, until jesus came and changed things.. for hundreds of years before jesus the jw's (israelites) had decided that the name of god was too holy to pronounce.
had he been upset by this he would have sent a prophet to sort this out, but no, it continued as practice,for 200 years at least,and remained uncondemned by jesus.. if jehovah had really wanted his people to use his name, would not a prophet, at least would not his son, have said so ?.
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The Quiet One
(relating to a god not having to be God Almighty, even an angel could be a god)..Theos -- 4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way a. God's representative or viceregent http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2316